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You are here: Home / Dating / How To Maintain a Casual Relationship

How To Maintain a Casual Relationship

May 9, 2014 by Dr. NerdLove

Commitment isn’t for everyone. Sometimes what you want is something a bit more low key, a more casual relationship instead of something long-term.

Maybe you’ve just gotten out of a relationship and the last thing you want is to jump on that particular horse again. Or maybe you’ve been a devoted reader of this site and now that you’re having some success, you’re feeling like a kid in the candy store and want to explore your options for a while.

"I'm gonna fuck two of everything!"
“I’m gonna fuck two of everything!”

Or maybe you’re just a serial dater;  you’re in it for the rush, that new relationship energy, the passion and the thrill of sexual novelty. Or maybe you’ve decided that you’d rather have a few people you see on a semi-regular basis instead of just one monogamous partner.

Whatever the reason, many people are more interested in a casual relationship than they are in something committed or long-term. The problem is that they often forget that casual relationships require maintenance and effort, the same as a relationship leading towards commitment. Just because there are no strings attached doesn’t mean that it’s a free-for-all. It’s easy for lines to get blurred and feelings to be hurt. If you want a successful casual hook-up, then you want to understand how to keep things straight forward and appealing to everybody involved.

Casual Relationships Have Rules

The commonly accepted definition of a casual relationship is one without expectations of monogamy or a long-term commitment.1 As a general rule of thumb, casual relationships are more relaxed; there’s usually less emotional investment and less involvement. Some relationships are strictly sexual while others are more companionable, but still without the expectation that they’re leading somewhere. Because of the lower levels of investment, they tend to be short-lived and generally easier to walk away from than a more standard relationship. But while a casual relationship doesn’t necessarily conform to the same social rules or expectations as a committed one, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t any.

The first and most important rule is that everybody has to be on the exact same page. Just because the relationship is casual doesn’t mean it’s OK to play with somebody’s expectations or treat their emotions like your personal chew toy. Not having any strings isn’t a license to be an asshole or a player or to coast along past any misunderstandings or miscommunications. You’re still dealing with a person, not a sex toy. It’s important to establish from the outset that this is a casual arrangement and that neither of you are expecting more out of it. Depending on the personalities involved, this may be something as simple as saying “you know this isn’t serious, right?” or a carefully negotiated contract stipulating what is and isn’t permissible.

"So you see, as stipulated in section 4, sub-section C, paragraph 2, any orgasm experienced by the party in the first part is to be reciprocated within the same encounter, or the party in violation will be labeled 'an inconsiderate pork-face' to their friends and owe at least two oral sex sessions lasting no less than 30 minutes."
“So you see, as stipulated in section 4, sub-section C, paragraph 2, any orgasm experienced by the party in the first part is to be reciprocated within the same encounter, or the party in violation will be labeled ‘an inconsiderate pork-face’ to their friends and owe at least two oral sex sessions lasting no less than 30 minutes.”

Regardless of how it’s done, you should establish some ground rules and expectations. The clearer everybody is on where they stand, the less chance there is for confusion, hurt and resentment.

When you’re still establishing the rules for your casual relationship, it is vitally important that you are scrupulously honest and up front. Do not agree to things in hopes that you can change his or her mind in the future or under the assumption that casual is just a stepping stone to “boyfriend/girlfriend” status. Similarly, do not suggest, hint or even vaguely insinuate that you might be up for something more in hopes of getting a casual commitment now. This is a dick move that I’ve seen far too many people pull and a violation of the other person’s trust. The people who do this are pustules on the collective ass of humanity who make it harder for the good-faith horndogs of the world and who deserve the wank-storm of karma that comes their way.

Don’t be that asshole.

Keep It Light

The point of a casual relationship is that it’s supposed to be fun and easy-going. It’s about the thrill of the new coupled with the ability to seek out what the world has to offer without being tied down by obligations or expectations to any one person. But most of us come from a background where what’s considered acceptable “dating” behavior has a heavy tilt towards romance and monogamy. It’s surprisingly easy to slip into the relationship frame without meaning to. For example,  a lot of “date spots” are designed to be as romantic as possible – low lights, soft music, etc. Sounds great, right? Except those romantic areas aren’t designed to be a prelude for steamy, bed-rocking, don’t-come-knocking sex later on. They’re designed to inspire feelings of love and affection. This doesn’t mean that panty-ripping, throw-each-other-against-the-wall sex isn’t going to follow (or is incompatible with romance, for that matter)… but it does subconsciously set the mood towards the “relationship” side of “casual relationship”.

This is why you want to avoid romance. Not because there’s something wrong with it, but because being romantic or going on romantic, candle-lit dates implies commitment… which is something you’re presumably not looking for. Even little things like buying flowers or celebrating special occasions can reframe the interaction from “two people enjoying each other’s company without expectations” to “two people dating.”

Of course, this doesn’t mean that you’re not supposed to have fun, go on dates or do anything aside from meeting up and wrecking hotel rooms like a couple of coked-out rock stars.

"Your usual room has been prepared for you. If you could please try to NOT make the cleaning service cry this time?"
“Your usual room has been prepared for you. If you could please try to NOT make the cleaning service cry this time?”

It just means that you need to be aware of the unspoken implication of your actions. If you’re in a casual relationship, you should consider keeping more towards activity dates, especially ones that get you charged up – going dancing, for example, or playing pool.

Similarly, you should keep the conversation light as well.  More personal intimacy tends to imply greater interest in emotional commitment. It’s easier to keep a certain amount of distance when you’re keeping the conversational topics to surface level engagement, talking about TV, books, movies, travel and the like. Think of it as though you were having a conversation during a night out with friends – you generally don’t get deeply personal when you’re out on the town with your buddies. That is about the same level you want to maintain with your date. Personal topics aren’t forbidden – you’re not trying to shut them out- but the more you both share about yourselves, the more likely one or both of you are going to feel yourselves crossing emotional lines. Not an inherently bad thing, but decidedly not a result you want if your goal is to keep to a no-strings relationship.

It’s also generally a good idea to keep things in the now. Focusing on the present rather than the future helps keep things about being in the moment. Unless you’re being especially callous and pointedly excluding them from the picture, talking about the future implies that you’re expecting them to be part of it. This in turn, raises the suggestion that you’re seeing them as a long-term prospect.  Again: not a bad thing, but presumably not what one is looking for if you’re trying to maintain a casual relationship. Try to avoid making plans beyond the level of “hey, I’ve got tickets to see Los Lonely Boys at Stubbs on Friday, want to go?” if possible.

Avoid “Relationship” Milestones

Speaking of avoiding the relationship frame: there are a number of moments that define a traditional relationship rather than a casual one. Meeting each other’s friends, for example, is a classic one. It’s a way of not just integrating your partner into your day to day life but letting her see another side of you by meeting the people who help shape you and make you who you are.

It's also about giving them the opportunity to pass judgment on you.
It’s also about giving her friends the opportunity to pass judgment on you.

This is a significant milestone in a traditional relationship – it says that you consider her presence important enough that you want to see whether she fits in with your existing social circle. But in a casual relationship, you have her and you have your friends. You don’t want to cross the streams unless you’re both especially good at compartmentalization. Bringing her into your social circle is a sign that you expect this relationship to get at least slightly more serious. You may not be ready to move in together, but it says you see her as a more established part of your life. Ideally, you want to keep your relationship strictly about you and her. You have your fun times together, but you also have entirely separate lives by design. Bringing them together runs the risk of boundaries getting blurred and expectations getting confused. And when that happens, people get hurt.

Other relationship events like observing anniversaries, calling her your girlfriend (or her calling you her boyfriend), giving her space at your home for her things and the like should similarly be avoided. These imply a level of commitment and interest that presumably you don’t actually share and lead to conversations about how one or the other of you thought that maybe things had been changing.

Limit Exposure

Another key part to keeping things casual and avoiding greater emotional investment on either part is to not see each other more than once a week.

One of the signs that a relationship is heating up and starting to become more serious is that you’re spending more and more time together. The more you are exposed to something – food, music, television shows… damn near everything, really – the more you come to like it. This also includes people. In fact, studies have found that repeated exposure is an intensifier in relationships; the more times you see somebody, the more you reinforce the dominant emotional association you feel with that person.

Thus proving that "Do you believe in love at first sight or should I walk by again?" is a valid dating strategy.
Frighteningly, this means “Do you believe in love at first sight or should I walk by again?” is actually a valid dating strategy.

Now before the Nice GuysTM pump their fists and yell “YES”, this doesn’t create attraction, it only reinforces what’s already there. But when you’re in a casual relationship with someone, there is presumably a sense of feeling and affection. Thus, the more often you see them, the more you’re reinforcing that affection… and running the risk of increasing the level of emotional investment to a point where you risk blurring lines of communication.

Part of being in a casual relationship is that you’re not spending all of your time together. Even people in friends-with-benefits arrangements – who presumably are friends even without the sexual side of their relationship – only see each other occasionally. More often than once or twice a week and you start to veer into “actual relationship” territory. You also should consider limiting communication outside of seeing each other in person as well. You don’t want complete radio silence – again, you’re not strangers who occasionally bang, you have a relationship – but long daily phone calls and all-day chat sessions on Instant Message are the province of greater levels of emotional connection. Spending all your free time going back and forth on Facebook and phone calls “just to say hi” aren’t casual relationship behavior.

Respect The Boundaries

One of the most important parts of making a casual relationship work is establishing and maintaining strong boundaries. Not only does this help weed out the users and manipulators, it also helps keep the lines of acceptable behavior clear. It reduces the chance of sending mixed messages – especially by accident – and thus reducing the potential for heartbreak and hurt feelings.

It also helps you identify the people who’ve gotten into a casual relationship under false pretenses. Even when I made it abundantly clear to the women I was dating that I was only interested in a casual thing, there would always be one or two who would agree and then start pushing for a relationship. Men will do this all the time as well – they enter into a no-strings-attached affair with the intention of trying to wear the woman down until she agrees to a committed relationship. In both cases, it’s profoundly unfair to everybody involved and leaves everyone feeling angry and resentful. Casual relationships are supposed to be light, fun affairs, not a cause for bitterness and and rancor. It’s important that if you want a casual relationship and your partner doesn’t that you don’t passively accept a change of parameters because you’re conflict averse and don’t want to risk a break-up by defending your boundaries. It’s one thing to be willing to re-negotiate the circumstances of your relationship; it’s another to have those changes forced upon you (or forcing them upon someone else) unilaterally.

"This deal is getting worse all the time."
“This deal is getting worse all the time.”

It’s also important to remember that those boundaries include discussions of other partners. Simply put: you don’t ask. If she volunteers, great. But unless you’ve already established that talking about other sex partners is fair game, then it’s simply none of your business. Part of the point of a casual relationship is the lack of commitment and that goes both ways. This is an affair, not a deposition and she’s not obligated to disclose anything about sexual activities that don’t involve you… just as you’re not obligated to share more than you feel comfortable with. Sometimes the best hedge against jealousy is pointed ignorance. Assume they’re seeing someone else – especially if you are – and remember: condoms, condoms, regular STI screening and also: condoms.

(The obvious exception here is in the case of  sexually-transmitted infections – positive exposure is a mandatory “disclose immediately.” )

It’s worth noting: the point of having and maintaining strong boundaries isn’t because people are going to try to trick you if you let you guard down. It’s about avoiding unnecessary heartache and tragedy. Strong boundaries and clear communication make for strong relationships – even casual ones. And a strong relationship can maintain its core affection even through the rough times. Casual relationships by their nature are short-lived and ephemeral… but that doesn’t mean that ending them needs to be about heartbreak and bad feelings. In fact, a casual sexual relationship can end up being the basis for an incredible and intimate friendship. But whether you end up as friends or something more, careful relationship maintenance can keep things light, happy and enjoyable for everybody.

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  1. Worth noting: there’s a difference between a casual relationship and non-monogamy. A casual relationship by definition implies that you’re not looking for attachments, emotionally or relationship-wise. Non-monogamy, on the other hand, only refers to sexual non-exclusivity, not the level of emotional commitment. [↩]

Filed Under: Dating Tagged With: casual relationship, dating, friends with benefits, relationships

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  • Jarenth

    Goddamnit, Doc, how is your timing so excellent all the time? I've only recently gotten involved with this girl, and we're both not particularly sure what 'it' is that we want to go for… So far things have been open and on the level with regard to mine and her expectations and reservations, but I'm still occasionally worried I'm giving off more of a long-term vibe than I'm really emotionally ready for. You provide some excellent talking points that I'll probably try bringing up next time I see her: luckily, direct and honest talks about the nature of this relationships have been a staple of our get-togethers to far.

    Personally, I consider the tipping point from 'casual' to 'committed' relationship when at least three lawyers get involved.

    • Torv

      I was just thinking the same. Perfect timing. I needed to know this and I didn't know that I needed to know.

  • Need2Know

    Hey Doc,
    On the topic of STIs: I'm a male and I'm very, very certain that I have HPV (Human papillomavirus) after my last girlfriend informed me that she tested positive for it after we broke up. I have not been able to tell for sure as there are no tests available to men to detect the virus, but I err on the side of caution and inform any new partner about this early on. I did take the vaccinations a for HPV after I found out, but my doctor warned me that she wasn't 100% sure if it would be gone or not. Reading up on the subject has led me to conclude that not even condoms can prevent spreading the infection (especially through oral sex). My question is: are there any other ways I can prevent infection? I really do not want to spread this to another girl (even though I know that a majority of sexually active individuals have HPV)

    • Nichole

      Great question! I feel like there's not enough information about HPV prevention. I had it for two years and was never told anything in terms of protecting my boyfriend at the time. There's no guidance out there!

      • Gentleman Horndog

        I feel like there's no guidance because there's so little to do about it. Guys can't get tested, and safer sex practices already cover what to do if you've been exposed. The vaccine is smart, but apparently, only an option if you're 26 or younger.

        I feel like the best you can do is tell partners you may have been exposed to it — which, given how common it is and how 50% of the sexually active population can't even be tested for it, is a perfectly sensible assumption to make of ANY new sex partner; and use a condom — which you should already be doing anyway.

        In other words, get nekkid and carry on.

        • eselle28

          Just going to chime on on the 26 or younger point: You can still be vaccinated if you're over the age of 26. I was 28ish. It's recommended for younger people because the assumption is that someone who's past a certain age has already been exposed to HPV. That being said, the vaccine covers 4 different strains, and people's individual sexual histories vary. There are some older people for whom it's worth it. The biggest downside is that someone who's past the recommended age may find the vaccination isn't covered by health insurance.

          • Gentleman Horndog

            Ah, good to know. Thanks for the clarification.

        • Nichole

          I agree with what you said but my point was that I was in a long term relationship when I found out and I wanted to know things like if my boyfriend shouldn't go down on me without protection, or if there were things I could do to try to protect him in case he somehow hadn't gotten it himself (granted, he might've given it to me but still) and I felt like my doctor didn't answer these questions or give me any kind of guidance.

          I was basically told "It's probably not a big deal, don't worry about it" and that was it. It was treated very casually.

    • Bas Kleijweg

      You can also spread it through kissing, according to some studies.

  • Marty Farley

    Fantastic advice Doc! I'm not big on casual relationships myself, but in the past when I dabbled, this advice would have been *extremely* useful.

    What I always found interesting was that I would go into a dating situation, stating full out that I wanted a long-term commitment, but was fine casually dating until it got there or one of us decided to end it. If I forced a conversation about it, the guy would lean heavily on the "Only Want Casual" side. There were a few times where I agreed (despite wanting a long-term commitment generally, I was okay casually dating specifically) only for the guy to start acting in a boyfriend-like manner. If I'd try to clarify, he'd verbally insist he wanted casual dating, while his behavior was committed and romantic.

    Now this would make sense if the guy was trying to Back-door his way into a relationship with me when I only wanted casual. But I was always upfront about the fact that if it turned serious, that would have been fine with me. And it happened enough times that I started to notice a very distinct pattern. I mean, what's going on there? The best I could come up with is that the guys wanted ME to be committed and exclusive, while they remained casual and unemotional.

    Thus I would add this advise to the Doc's: it's important to be honest with your partner, but also be honest with yourself. Really dig into your subconscious and ask yourself what you're after. If you're not honest with yourself, it doesn't matter how good your communication skills are-you're still going to confuse the hell out of whomever you're dating.

    • Gentleman Horndog

      Yup. That was my immediate thought when I read this: I suspected those guys weren't lying to you about what they wanted so much as they were lying to themselves, and you just got splashed by it. No fun. Lends itself to having the same damn Defining The Relationship conversation multiple times, where nothing gets resolved.

    • Torv

      Its possible that they were trying to be casual but just didn't know how to go about it. Most things guys are taught about dating is bent towards being romantic and committed. Its hard to stop that kind of behavior unless you really understand what you're doing. I think I would fall into that trap if I hadn't read this article.

      • Gentleman Horndog

        I think a lot of the problem comes from only being shown two options when we're young (well, at least when I was young): either you're OMFG JUST USING HER FOR SEX (you dick), or you're Treating Her Right which entails all the boyfriend-y stuff described here. I feel like we're largely on our own when trying to find a middle path to a legit casual relationship that leaves everybody happy and well-fucked.

        • Skada

          I love how you phrased that. I have somebody I know that I would like to pursue a FWB relationship with, and wondering how on earth to go about that kindly.

          It's not just for the young, either.

          • Gentleman Horndog

            I find Doc's advice sound. Fundamentally, you have to figure out how to treat her with consideration and respect without sliding into "Romance! Romance! Romance!" cues.

            Which can be remarkably tricky, given the amount of cultural baggage we often don't realize we're carrying around. (Women can enjoy getting laid just for the sake of getting laid, too! Which would have blown fifteen-year-old Horndog's mind.) Just try to be as open and honest with both her and yourself as you can manage, and try to treat her mistakes with as much patience as you'd like her to treat yours.

            The two of you may wind up having to figure this stuff out as you go. But if she's game, go for it.

      • A dude

        I don't mean to be overly presumptuous, but I think the idea that you're somehow going to completely avoid the traps in this article simply by having read it is overly optimistic. It's good to be reminded and informed of the "rules" of social dynamics, but I think experience is by far the better teacher.

    • Nichole

      I've had this happen to me too, so many times. The most recent guy left his Playstation 2 and a stack of 80+ hour RPGs at my house on our FIRST DATE. But then he said he "wasn't ready for anything serious." Then, on our second date he brought over the first book in a trilogy that he wanted me to read. Then on our fifth date he had me meet his cousin and his best friend. Fast forward a few weeks later and he's texting me, "Yeah! I'd love to watch that movie with you. By the way, I met someone over the weekend and I'm going to turn my physical attentions towards her…"

      I agree with Torv – I think most guys may want something casual but have no idea how to go about it so they do a bunch of romantic shit and send a ton of mixed signals. It's so exhausting and frustrating, I've given up on casual relationships altogether.

      • Marty Farley

        Well this reminds me of my 3rd theory, which is that these guys want a casual relationship, while at the same time they enjoy having a Filler Girlfriend. Some of my other lady friends have observed that girlfriends are the only way a lot of guys get certain needs met (see: the Doc's article on male friendship), so they let the relationship drift into more romantic territory in order to facilitate that need for emotional intimacy, companionship and care. Deep down, however, they know they don't like the girl enough to make her a permanent, long-term girlfriend; so they say Casual but act Committed as a way to have their cake and eat it too.

        Saying Casual means they can pursue a girl who they do actually dig enough to date long-term, but Acting Committed means they also have blanket protection from liability. A girl they're dating can't call them on their behavior because hey, they said at the beginning this was casual! Frankly, it's kind of a fantastic con.

        • inertia19xx

          I have found this too….

          It is incredibly frustrating…

        • Colleen Nelson

          I don't think guys consciously plan it that way. Another explanation might be that guys call it "casual" because they've been told stuff like "commitment is for suckers", and/or have more or less bought into the cultural narrative of men only being in it for the sex. So they claim to want a "sex only" relationship. However, they still crave emotional attention, and since basically the only potential societally-approved place to get it is from your sex partner…they try to get it from you. While still claiming that its all just for sex, because they don't want to admit to wanting anything else, because "men don't do that touchy feely BS" or however people like to put it these days.

          • AstralDazzle

            Yes, and I think this can be particularly true for guys (and probably all genders really) who are crossing the threshold into maybe? wanting to settle down and getting pressure from friends and family both to settle down from some and to stay unattached from others. It seems like a "best of both worlds" vetting process, and I get the impression they have all kinds of things they're trying to observe without having to use their words and have relationshippy conversations.

            I dated a guy casually once, who, like the guy Nichole describes lent me the first book in his favorite trilogy, favorite movies and CDs, talked about future stuff we could do together. But after a couple of months I was still only seeing him every other Thursday or Sunday and I wanted more, so I went over to tell him that I didn't like the ambiguity and we should just stop with the dating. Which led to one of the most emotionally intimate hours of him telling me his sob story and getting weepy and holding one another. I didn't see him socially for a while (he was part of a social group I was in).

            A couple of months later, I ran into him, and one of the first sentences out of his mouth was "I decided I didn't want kids this past weekend." I couldn't figure out for the life of me why he would announce this to me, but then wondered if that time we were at the mall and he pointed at a couch, saying how he imagined it as the family movie-watching couch, that it was some kind of way to assess my family-mindedness without you know, actually having to have the conversation and making things sound "serious."

          • Joy

            "I couldn't figure out for the life of me why he would announce this to me, but then wondered if that time we were at the mall and he pointed at a couch, saying how he imagined it as the family movie-watching couch, that it was some kind of way to assess my family-mindedness without you know, actually having to have the conversation"

            Huh. See, I've known since probably middle school, high school at the latest, that I didn't want children. And I could see myself happily agreeing that yes, that comfy couch *does* look like a good family movie-watching couch. So if a guy was hinting around using it as some sort of esoteric biological clock indicator, there would probably be some crossed signals there.

            So basically, it's best to just use your words and not play Comfy Couch Rorschach. 🙂

          • OtherRoooToo

            " don't think guys consciously plan it that way."

            I don't think that means not holding them accountable for doing it once it's pointed out to them that they are in fact doing it, intentionally or not, IMO.

        • Nichole

          My friends said the same thing! He'd emotion dump on me, talk to me about serious things, leave his shit at my house, have sex with me, etc. so he was getting all the bennies of a girlfriend without having to call me, make time for me, or be in a committed relationship.

          Filler Girlfriend, indeed!

          • eselle28

            I think this is really common, or at least I've had explicitly casual boyfriends do the same with me. I really try to keep an eye on this when dating casually, because I don't want to do much of anything that's in the "work" rather than the "play" column for someone who isn't going to be in my life long enough to justify an investment and who's probably not going to be willing to do much in terms of reciprocation.

            I think part of the problem isn't just the guys. It's only been in the last few years that I've recognized emotional work or small services as being things I can decide to contribute to a relationship or not, rather than things that any decent person (meaning any decent woman) would do automatically for everyone in her life.

          • Nichole

            I love this comment – the experience with that guy definitely opened my eyes to how much I should be investing in a relationship before getting anything back. Things have gone a lot differently with the guy I'm seeing now and I'm happy to say I'm getting back as much, if not more, than I put in. I guess it's part of growing up!

          • Gentleman Johnny

            I love the "work vs play" division. I think it encapsulates the article nicely and clarifies a few things in my own complex dating life.

        • Thereal McCoy

          Oh yeah, there are definitely times when some guys want all the girlfriend services* without having to provide the boyfriend services*. Took me a few situations to get here, but I now have a policy that girlfriend services are part of the total girlfriend package and are not available a la carte.

          *meaning emotional support, advice, home cooked meals, cuddling, toothbrush at my place …

          • Gentleman Johnny

            "Hi, can I have sex, home cooked meals and a change of clothes at your place?"

            "That'll be dating exclusively but not in a relationship at the second window, please."

          • Marty Farley

            Wow, really? Goes to show how differently people's definitions of dating can be-I've been in full-blown, months long relationships and yet never kept any of my stuff over at their house (unless it was something small that I forgot, like a pair of earrings.)

          • eselle28

            Both that and the cooking are more like six month relationship and talking about the future at the third window at McEselle's. But this is one of those things where I think people vary.

          • OtherRoooToo

            "McEselle's"

            *love*

            *especially in context*

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Eh, it was a random set of relationship articles to make a joke. I definitely bring an overnight bag when I'm staying over at someone's place. If I'm keeping my toothbrush there, we should probably be talking about splitting rent. I left a video game at someone's house but that was more of "this is cool, you should play it" that I'd do with any friend. Cooking, yeah if its not frozen in a box cooking is at least as special a thing as paying for dinner at a restaurant. "Throw me in some pop tarts when your waffles are done", not so much.

          • theBoojum

            What if you're the sort of person who forgets stuff? I leave toothbrushes behind pretty early into things (I ask first)

          • Gentleman Johnny

            Well, you're not going to be surviving the zombie apocalypse, that's for sure! I mention this because the overnight bag is to dating what the bug out bag is to disaster preparedness. It should always be ready if there's even a remote possibility that it will be useful. Its not just a good idea for dating, either. You never know when something may require you to be gone from home for a day or two. If you're going to forget, get a small backpack or satchel with those little sample bottles of shampoo, conditioner, toothpaste, soap, shaving cream, a spare stick of deodorant, hair brush, nail clippers, disposable razor, clean socks and underwear and a toothbrush. Keep it in your trunk next to the jumper cables, first aid kit, entrenching tool, shotgun and three day supply of food and water. If you want to be overprepared, have three pairs of clean socks and underwear, three more shirts, a pair of jeans and a pair of slacks. You can stretch the clothing on your back and in that bag out to last a week without washing if you're not getting too sweaty.

          • eselle28

            It sounds like the women you're currently dating say "yes" to this request, in which case it's not a problem. If you run into a woman who says "no," Johnny's suggestion is the best of the bunch. The other alternative, which is admittedly a bit of a hassle, is waking up early so you can go back to your own place before heading to work…or restricting hangout times to weekends.

          • theBoojum

            I love that you guys think I'm a man 🙂

          • eselle28

            Ah, sorry! Shouldn't assume!

            Do you carry a purse? I generally keep a toothbrush, a contact lens case, and a change of underwear in one of my side pockets as a matter of course (it's made my life much more pleasant when working late, traveling, or hooking up), but I'm also that person who drags the same big tote around everywhere.

          • theBoojum

            Don't worry, I'm not completely female Identified so I kinda get a kick out of being mistaken for a man 😛

            I use the same satchel day in and day out, but its a black hole of old receipts and bits of loose tobacco, even when I keep a tooth brush in a lesser used pocket it still gets gross.

            What I was getting at in response to Johnny's comment was that these aren't hard and fast rules, and you have to work out whats best given the situation at hand. I'm the sort of girl who makes her (very relaxed) ideas around relationships known pretty early on, so when I say 'hey can I start leaving a toothbrush at yours since I'm around here every weekend?' guys are usually pretty relaxed and take me at face value rather than "Omg she's trying to turn this into a relationship.. RUN"

            Although the key there is that I would have already established that I was around enough, regularly enough to justify it. And also for it to be totally okay if leaving of personal items was alright with them.

          • fuzzilla

            **"That'll be dating exclusively but not in a relationship at the second window, please."**

            Wha..? You said you were kinda making a joke, but how is dating exclusively *not* a relationship?

          • eselle28

            To me, those two things aren't actually the same, though sometimes they go together. I only use relationship when I'm talking about someone who I'm committed to continue seeing in the future. Sometimes that happens at the same time as exclusivity, but sometimes exclusivity is a few months sooner.

          • fuzzilla

            **Took me a few situations to get here, but I now have a policy that girlfriend services are part of the total girlfriend package and are not available a la carte.**

            Ha! I <3 this comment so much. So true. It's a mindf*ck for me when they do actually say they want a commitment, they want it all – to enjoy the full girlfriend experience and provide the full boyfriend experience. Yet somehow what the reality looks like is me doing 3x the work they do. No thanks. I signed on to be your girlfriend, not your surrogate mom.

      • eselle28

        I've run into this as well. I think it's a basic problem of people assuming that a casual relationship is all the good things about a serious relationship without any of the work or commitment, when the reality is that if you give a bit less you need to ask a bit less as well.

        • Marty Farley

          Hmm yes I've seen that attitude pop up a lot too, and it goes a long way towards explaining this trend.

    • Skymaw

      There are a lot of reasons why things like this happen. The exciting "achievement unlocked" model of modern dating also means that some people only want what they can't have. Not consciously, even. Just as sometimes a guy will spontaneously lose interest in a crush after they've had sex, the opposite also works: once he knows for certain that she's serious when she says 'no strings attached', suddenly girlfriend material is the tastiest candy in the store.

  • Gentleman Horndog

    An important implication that Doc doesn't explicitly hit: You need to be reasonably secure about yourself and what you're bringing to the table for a casual relationship to work. If you know that you tend to get a bit jittery and need a lot of reassurance from your sex partner that all is well, that's a bit much to be asking of a FWB. (And, honestly, it's something you should be trying to get a handle on before you expect a committed partner to deal with it, too.)

    If you're fearful that they could leave you and end this at any moment … well, yeah. They could. That's why it's "casual" and not "committed." Says so right on the tin.

  • fakely_mctest

    As a longtime casual dating champ, I'd cosign pretty much everything EXCEPT this bit: "For example, a lot of “date spots” are designed to be as romantic as possible – low lights, soft music, etc. Sounds great, right? Except those romantic areas aren't designed to be a prelude for steamy, bed-rocking, don’t-come-knocking sex later on."

    I know where I live there are restaurants and bars that the paper's entertainment guide specifically pegs as being good for dates, however, it's not like no other things go on there ever. There's a huge overlap between "good for dates" and "places you can get a really superior, beautifully presented meal and some delicious wine/well-balanced cocktails." I don't know, I feel like the advice ends up being too prescriptive in this area, but then I'm personally in zero danger of accidentally falling in love with someone over a really good rooftop-to-table situation and much more likely to find that being gastronomically sated leads naturally into other types of satiation later in the evening.

    • fuzzilla

      Atmosphere aside, I'd say it's not realistic to expect an FWB to spend tall cash on your dates. But hey, if you're splitting the check/he's a high roller/everyone's happy, then God bless and tell me your secret.

      • fakely_mctest

        FWB is a different thing to me than casual. Casual dating, to me, involves sometimes leaving the house and sometimes eating a nice meal together if that is something we're both into.

        I consider paying my own way an especially crucial part of casual dating and if I'm dating someone who also likes a nice meal at a nice restaurant from time to time, I think that's a perfectly fine shared casual dating type activity.

        • fuzzilla

          Actually, my long-term FWB was/is a lot more generous than the last guy I dated. He was in a big rush to move in together and all this other stuff, yet pretty much every date was Netflix and me cooking. Once in a blue moon we'd go to a sit-down restaurant that served alcohol, but it felt like pulling teeth to make it happen. I think I'm still maybe a little bitter about that, heh.

          Welp, got me a clean slate and the summer off school, so I'll see what trouble I can get into on OKC. ;o)

          • eselle28

            "yet pretty much every date was Netflix and me cooking"

            Ugh. I've fallen into that trap in the past. What's really annoying is when guys label these dates "easy" and "low maintenance" and "cheap." Um, no. They actually involve a lot of work and a decent amount of money. It's just that you're not paying attention to it because I'm the one making all the contributions.

          • fuzzilla

            Yep, agreed. What was *really* annoying was that I did all that work and then he'd *still* complain about our dates costing him a lot of money (he'd bring beer over and occasionally pick up drive thru or call for delivery).

            I'm a poor college student, and I have no problem with cheap, chill dates. That's partly why I offered to cook so much in the first place. I know you can't be painting the town red every night but seriously, if you're sweatin' a trip to Taco Bell, maybe you really are too poor to date.

            I dunno…I kinda feel like a d*ck bitching about a guy's finances when I'm pretty broke myself. I think the bigger issue was that I felt taken for granted and like I was ignored when I brought these things up. I tried really hard to carefully and thoughtfully express my needs and feelings, and I just felt like i was talking to a brick wall. If he'd planned thoughtful, creative things that didn't cost a lot of money, I wouldn't have the same complaints, you know?

            Anyway, guess I'm feeling ranty today. It's summer! OKC trouble awaits! ;o)

          • eselle28

            You don't sound like a jerk at all. Regardless of either of your finances, it sounds like you were putting a lot of effort into the relationship, and he was doing very little in return and failing to acknowledge your contributions. That's not a good partner to have at all. OkCupid does have its troubles, but it also feels really refreshing after a stifling relationship has ended!

          • fuzzilla

            I still don't think he's a bad guy, he's just….a doofus, kind of clueless.

            I've put up with far worse in relationships, and I didn't actually date him all that long, so I'm not sure why this ate away at me so much. Now I'm thinking it's the cognitive dissonance of him being so enthusiastic and saying he loved me and wanting to move in together and yet…utterly dropping the ball on actually maintaining the relationship. The things that annoyed me about him/our relationship were hardly The Worst Things Ever, but the "say one thing and do another" cognitive dissonance was totally crazy-making. I think that trying over and over and over again to be understood, assuming the problem is my failure to communicate rather than their doofus-osity….is a bit of an emotional landmine for me. Hmm.

            Thanks for validating/listening to me vent. ;o)

          • AstralDazzle

            I'll second your rant! I've been here too with an ex, but interestingly when I was a poor student, I had a lot of female friends who were poor students, as well. We nevertheless managed to regularly get together for girls' nights at decent restaurants, coffee houses, and bars; thrift/discount shopping excursions; potluck-with-upscale-cocktail game nights, hikes, or even go on a road trip. But I knew whenever I proposed such outings to then-BF, I would bring on the anxious hem-hawing. If we did do something, he would often look miserable. I finally just accepted that he was a homebody, that he was almost never going to want to go out, and this was one of several nails in the coffin of our relationship.

          • OtherRoooToo

            "What's really annoying is when guys label these dates [Netflix + cooking] "easy" and "low maintenance" and "cheap." Um, no. They actually involve a lot of work and a decent amount of money. It's just that you're not paying attention to it because I'm the one making all the contributions. "

            Ladies & gentlemen, we have a winner.

            And in more than one category.

          • Gentleman Horndog

            I know it doesn't apply to everybody, but they've got a brand spankin' new "Monogamy?" field that you can include in searches. And I'm quite fond of it. 😉

          • Kylroy

            I've seen "relationship type" on there as a field – is that what you're referring to?

          • eselle28

            Yup. It's nice they finally acknowledged it's an issue that lots of their users care about (though I'm not really sure what the best description for me is).

        • eselle28

          I pretty much always pay my own way, whether I consider a relationship serious or not, so my casual dates don't necessarily differ all that much in terms of expense. In both cases, it's a function of how much expendable income I have and how much expendable income he has. Having someone to go do things with would be on my list of reasons to want a casual relationship.

          I'd say the biggest difference in the dates is that I'd be unlikely to include friends in our plans or to suggest anything that needed a lot of advance planning (a concert next month in another city, or something similar). EDIT: Oh, and after reading fuzzilla's comment, I remembered that another difference would be that I don't do servicey type dates like making dinner or helping someone decorate his place with guys I'm not serious about.

  • eselle28

    Well, this one is timely. I've had to have the No, You Can't Keep Your Shit At My Place and the Nope, I'm Not Interested In Being Exclusive conversations recently, and these seem like good rules. I guess I've never had a problem with date spots being too romantic, but I'm not especially fond of dancing with a partner or playing pool, and most of the restaurants in my area don't fit the candlelight and romance theme very well. I'm boringly fond of dinner and a movie with casual dates.

  • Bas Kleijweg

    Hmm, the emotional leeway and doing cute stuff together is something I do. Then again, I mostly go for down-to-earth gals, who don't read too much into anything, so I should be alright.

    • Marty Farley

      I think if you're just a naturally cuddly/romantic-type person, you can probably counterbalance that by being as blunt and straight-forward (in a kind way) as possible about your intentions. Drawing your boundaries very firmly and verbally confirming them would help get the communication across, even if your behavior did tend to lean a little romantic.

      That said, I really need to pick a nit about your "down to earth" gals. Dude, you do realize what a problematic characterization that is? Essentially what you're saying here is that regardless of your own behaviors, the girl is entirely responsible for everything-that the onus is completely on her to not only communicate her own needs, but to magically figure out yours. And if her acceptance letter to Dr. Xavier's School for Mind-readers got lost in the mail, then she is labeled "not down to earth." (The opposite of "down to earth" being flighty, unrealistic, impractical-aka, not the nicest set of traits.)

      We've talked in the comments before about the pressure a lot of ladies feel to be the "Cool Girl," and it's comments like this that feed into it. It really does need to be your responsibility to be aware of your own actions and how they're coded in society. If I wave at someone by shaking my middle finger at them, it's really on me to understand why they're upset and don't understand that I was just trying to say hi. If you introduce your "casual gal" to your parents by inviting her to a weekend-long trip to your home town where she has no other reason to be, it is on you to recognize that this might be sending really mixed signals, regardless of how "down to earth" she is.

      A lot of guys complain about how girls try to back-door their way into committed relationships that are supposed to be casual, which I agree can be frustrating, but I think this attitude is a big reason why. A girl reading into behavior that is socially coded as romantic or committed is NOT some evil man-poacher, clicking her talons together in anticipation of tricking a guy into being Facebook Official…. she's usually just a gal who is confused by mixed signals, but doesn't know how to bring it up without being labeled exactly that.

      • arlette

        Yeah – guys are frequently not great about talking about their feelings or boundaries and intent in relationships, so I'm often stuck reading the damn tea leaves trying to figure it out. A lot of the time the choice seems to be between being a "demanding but informed" woman versus "down to earth, chill and completely confused."

      • Bas Kleijweg

        Huh. Not sure how it's possible to parse down-to-earth as mind readers. Discussing personal issues and lending a listening ear is something you even do with one-night stands because late night convos always end up going there, and writing the occassional quirky poem or cooking by candlelight while singing loud and false along to the smarmy playlist is…cute, and at the same time takes the mick out of the very idea of romance.

        Doesn't exclude clearly citing your terms of the relationship to her, but does exclude her actually second-guessing what you're saying because of hoping for something else.

        It would be the same in a genderflipped version where I'd interpret an FWB saying I'm an awesome person/good listener/somesuch as a sign she's in love, or parsing gifts and postcards as them trying to win me over to an upgrade instead of just making the gesture because they like baking/writing/etcetera.

        • Marty Farley

          "writing the occassional quirky poem or cooking by candlelight while singing loud and false along to the smarmy playlist is…cute, and at the same time takes the mick out of the very idea of romance."

          That really, really depends on your definition of romance. Which is why I advice communication, instead of assuming that she's on the same page because she's "down to earth." (Which as I pointed out above, is a pretty meaningless conjecture. What does "down to earth" really translate to here?)

          I know plenty of people for whom joking around about romance kind of IS romantic. And having late night conversations certainly can be. It's all very gray area, depends-on-the-person, but you can't predict ahead of time based on what kind of person you think she is.

          Frankly, if my male friend told me his FWB was sending him gifts and postcards and telling him how awesome he'd is, I'd raise an eyebrow and ask if he's clarified with her what exactly is it they're doing, cause those sound like pretty large love tokens to me.

        • Thereal McCoy

          "Discussing personal issues and lending a listening ear is something you even do with one-night stands"

          Summoning the nopetapus. You need a listening ear, see a therapist. They're usually available for one off appointments.

        • arlette

          Well, see Marty Farty's comment a bit higher up. "Down to earth" and "chill" are often set opposite to "high-maintenance" and "prone to drama" (OMG, so many OK Cupid profiles of dudes looking for "a down to earth girl, I hate drama!!!!") so there's real pressure for women not to stir up a fuss and "be that girl." I'm saying "lack of drama doesn't necessarily mean solid communication is happening," really. If it is, you don't have anything to worry about.

          And in a genderflipped version, I've totally had people I was dating casually try to win me over with gifts and thoughtful gestures. And it's not the same; there's a whole lot more cultural baggage saying relentless pursuit by a guy is romantic instead of desperate.

          Stuff gets weird if you don't spell it out.

          • inertia19xx

            you really should look at DNL's article on labeling women Crazy, I think labeling them drama queen and high maintenance might fall in to that. http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/07/labeling-wo….

            It is dismissive.

            I had a guy I was chatting with, said to me "that's my girl"… after a few seconds thinking about it, I said "okay you you can call me that if you want" …
            he says to me "but I want to call you something else, something dirty."
            I say. "Should I be afraid? Am I not going to like this?"
            Him : "It's Nothing bad."
            Me: "Okay what is it."
            Him: "My Slut."

            He didn't seem to understand how I could possibly not like that…. Couldn't understand why I wasn't talking to him after that….

            The point is calling someone a drama queen is dismissing the things that upset them.

        • OtherRoooToo

          "Not sure how it's possible to parse down-to-earth as mind readers. "

          a) by not defining "down-to-earth" in the first place …?

          b) by assuming that everyone you're in relationship with and/or trying to establish relationship with uses your personal definition of "down-to-earth" …?

          I said recently to someone I'm seeing that miscommunication about casual dating expectations is a huge part of the problem between people trying to set them up — right down to the fact that some people even define the word "communication" differently, and if that's not acknowledged and explicitly handled, well … the possibilities are rife for a big eventual mess.

          Inigo Montoya lives.

    • inertia19xx

      even the most down to earth people have things that bother them… Maybe the stuff you are doing isn't bothering them…

      I search for people whose life style fits with mine.

      There is not one person on the planet who doesn't have things that bother them.

      1 guy might say I was an uptight bitch
      and the next person might say I am laid back and easy going…

      The difference is how well suited the person is with my life style…

      I am far past taking nonsense…

    • arlette

      Orrrr you could nip that stuff in the bud, or make sure to occasionally reiterate where you stand with them, since "down-to-earth" women can get confused by mixed messages just as easily as any other kind do.

      • inertia19xx

        *rolls eyes*

        what I am saying is that people, even women, notice how I said PEOPLE, not women…. don't neatly fold into to categories…. Down to earth and People who get upset over everything…. People are Men and Women are very complex….

        and I "nip that stuff in the bud" by dealing with people who don't irritate the crap out of me. People whose life styles work with mine.

        for example…. I hate the smell of cigarette and weed…. I don't date guys who do that stuff cause frankly I have a strong sense of smell and I don't want to be around that smell all the time. Talking in passing sure we can grab a coffee if you want to talk r shit but I am not going to be dating you. There is one thing down that mght cause friction….

        Obviously no one can fit perfectly but knowing what you really don't want to deal with helps.

        • inertia19xx

          I was purely talking about his refference to "down to earth"

          when I don't believe that really exists….

          There is a reason why one person will think a person is a great person, and another will find them to be an asshole… Different people have different social need and different perspectives.

          Everyone should really be looking for someone who's life style meets theirs, or their needs…

  • fuzzilla

    Great article. I would suggest one edit; I'd put this:

    **Do not agree to things in hopes that you can change his or her mind in the future or under the assumption that casual is just a stepping stone to “boyfriend/girlfriend” status.**

    in bold, all caps. ;o)

    I've had casual relationships work swimmingly before (well, one long-term one). For me, a lot depends on the person and the circumstances. As stated, I wouldn't do it with someone I wanted a serious relationship with. I'd do it with someone I liked a lot as a friend and thought was pretty cute but who had some fatal flaw that made me think, "yeah, no" on the relationship front (i.e., they live far away, massively different life goals, they have certain habits that drive me up the wall, etc.)..

    The thing I always remind myself in order to have a good attitude about the FWB thing is, "Don't think of it as a complete meal to meet all your nutritional needs. It's more like a little flask of whiskey or box of bon bons tucked away in your bag – a little something extra to make life a little nicer."

    • fuzzilla

      **I'd do it with someone I liked a lot as a friend and thought was pretty cute but who had some fatal flaw that made me think, "yeah, no" on the relationship front (i.e., they live far away, massively different life goals, they have certain habits that drive me up the wall, etc.).**

      Also, only agreeing to an FWB thing in certain circumstances makes it easy because the boundaries kind of naturally enforce themselves. Not the only way to do it, but what works for me.

      • eselle28

        Definitely agree that it's good to pick casual partners who you know you don't want to date. Ideally, they'll feel the same about you. Some of the more awkward situations I've been in have involved someone who I thought was obviously incompatible because of a substantial age gap and very different goals who thought I seemed like girlfriend material.

  • Thereal McCoy

    Actually, a lot of people, both men and women, want a monogamous casual relationship. There are many reasons to want this, all of them valid, and anyone who wants an exclusive, casual relationship should go ahead and ask for it. As with all relationship wants, asking doesn't mean you will get it, and then you have to decide if you want to stay with this particular partner under their conditions.

    There are also many people who are incapable of wrapping their head around the concept of wanting only to have sex with one person who is also only having sex with you, but not wanting to make it official. That's ok. You don't have to understand or participate in such a relationship.

  • LTP_aka_TheWisp

    Is there any room in this for "high emotional intensity but low commitment" relationships? Relationships with intense emotions and romance along with the fun and sex, but without the high time commitment, expectations of exclusivity, or expectations of a long term future together. I know a lot of "secondary" polyamorous relationships fit this description, and maybe this is a sign that I'm poly (I kinda think I am, but I have not experience so I can't say that with certainty), but is this possible out in the "real world".

    • Guest

      Well I suppose that depends on why you want what you want. I think it's possible for people to find pretty much whatever they are looking for so long as they are willing to wait for it and communicate when it happens.

      So I guess my question is: why the lack of commitment if you want every other part that comes with commitment? Is it literally a time issue, like you can only invest one day a week on a person? Is it that you don't want to commit to any one woman because you want to be with as many as possible? Are you easily bored and have found in past relationships you quickly lose interest? Are you interested in sex and having a shoulder to cry on, but not that interested in who the other person might be and what that person might want? I could understand being young and not wanting to commit to anyone yet, but it seems like you want all the trappings of a committed relationship except for the committed part. So what about exclusivity and long term commitment makes you uncomfortable?

      Also, from my understanding being poly has a lot more to do with being a good communicator and an ability to commit to others than not having to worry about committing. All my poly friends work harder at the commitment part of their relationships, making sure to nurture all their relationships in their own unique ways. Being poly doesn't mean just getting the good stuff without the work.

      In conclusion, I think it would be helpful to know why you want what you want, and then we can see if there's a way of going about getting it 🙂 .

      • LTP_aka_TheWisp

        Hm, well, I guess I really want to be able to explore my own sexuality and the sexuality of others, but — and I concede that I may be wrong about this given my inexperience — I also don't think I'd be good at separating sex and emotions. So I'd like to be able to have multiple sexual relationships, perhaps even at the same time, where I could get intimate and emotional with my partners but at the same time have there be no expectation of becoming long term partners (unless we both feel that way after some time).

        My long term ideal is a poly-type situation with a primary I'm very close to and a couple secondaries, all fairly stable. But, before that, I want to be able to engage in youthful exploration without having to hold my emotions at bay. Does that make sense?

        • Guest

          Hmm . . . I agree with eselle that what you are looking for can be quite tricky. The problem is if you want the strong emotional component that usually results in a connection that usually results in a desire for commitment. That being said, I think the advice in this article is then rather spot on for you. You will have to work extremely hard with communicating clearly. Many people, men and women, take emotional connectedness as a sign of intimacy and thus as a sign of a connection and commitment. And maybe they shouldn't jump to that last conclusion, but humans being humans do jump to conclusions. If you want to be Casanova (by which I mean a gentleman who is thought to have had a great many lovers who he also had connections with and respect for), then you are going to have to put in the work. Not rely that you said it once and if she gets the wrong idea later, oh well. Constant checking in, making sure she is as satisfied as you are, and making tough choices, like ending it with someone you feel a strong connection with because you know she wants more from you than you can offer.

          It is doable, you just have to work very hard.

          Also I caution you that no one gets their fairytale. Things will still get messy, hearts will still be broken (possibly even yours) and you might discover that what you thought you wanted you don't at all. Just be open and honest, with others and most importantly with yourself 🙂 .

          • LTP_aka_TheWisp

            "Also I caution you that no one gets their fairytale. Things will still get messy, hearts will still be broken (possibly even yours) and you might discover that what you thought you wanted you don't at all. Just be open and honest, with others and most importantly with yourself 🙂 ."

            Oh, totally. I admit that I have no idea what I'll really want and what will actually be doable given my future life circumstances, but I figure I might as well talk about the theory of this stuff, you know?

          • Guest

            Oh absolutely, and there is no harm talking about what you want and having a clear picture. I just know from personal experience and from witnessing others that the people who fought against what they really wanted are the ones who most hurt themselves and others. There is a lot of pressure, especially I feel in the nerd community, to let your "freak flag fly", and I have known far too many people who have adopted lifestyles that went totally against what they really wanted because it's what they thought they wanted. They wanted so badly to fit a certain mould of person that they made themselves miserable doing it. Seeing these same friends now content and happy with what they REALLY want convinces me that while it is absolutely important to share your dreams and go after them, we also need to make sure we remain true to ourselves along the way. It's not saying that what we want isn't what we really wanted at the time, it's that when we get it and maybe it turns out we didn't really want it after all it's okay for us to say "Never mind." Too much sticking to old plans causes real distress. I've seen it with careers and with relationships.

            And that's all. I think what you want is good so long as you are honest with your partners 🙂 . I just want people to not get mad or beat themselves up if when they finally get what they want they're a little, "Meh." Then again, if when you get what you want you're all, "Oh yeah!!", well that's truly awesome 🙂 .

          • AstralDazzle

            Great life advice in general, Guest. We have so many life options today that it's difficult to know what lifestyle, job, place is going to fit us without actually trying these things. Unless one knows they are super conventional and have always been happy just going along with what is expected in their community, people do have to try out what they think they want to find out if it really is fulfilling or not. And listen to the energy.

          • Guest

            Exactly. But I'd caution that it's not just the "super conventional" who have prescribed expectations in their community. I know of far too many nerds who weren't actually really poly, or weren't that kinky, who forced themselves to be so because they didn't want to be "super conventional" and wanted to fit in with the "outsiders". I think in general if you belong to a community and enjoy their conventions, yes it is a lot easier. But it isn't a question always of convention vs not. In my community at least it is much harder for people who want to be vanilla, want to be out of a Norman Rockwell painting.

            So yes, exactly what you said. But it goes with every community in society. Yes, it is easier if you fit that community's norms, but most of us don't (regardless of the community), and as you say need to truly explore what fulfills them or not. 🙂

            (forgive how pedantic I'm being, I know you know all this. This is more a general post for lurkers etc. Since I know this is a nerd/geek frequented place I do want to remind my fellow nerds that it is okay to also be what is considered "super conventional". I know you weren't saying others, I'm just being uber obvious about it, lol 🙂 )

          • Guest

            * otherwise, not others 😛

          • AstralDazzle

            Yes, good clarification. I find it so interesting how many people who were the poster people for non-conventional lifestyles a few years ago are joyfully jumping into the conventional social norm. Some of that is a function of age, I'm sure. And for people who do really want kids, there aren't a whole lot public models of poly families (and I should really ask that kinky couple who make lifestyle furniture/large "toys" how they navigate their somewhat open kinky life with having a family…).

            But I definitely know in some communities it's not socially acceptable to want to get married and have kids right away, so everyone's cool with whatever they think it's cool to be today until they find themselves having regular sex with someone else who turns out would also be happier in a more conventional arrangement. A lot of the younger committed couples I know back-doored their way into an ltr through fwb/casual hook-ups or friendships.

    • eselle28

      Honestly? Outside of poly communities, that's kind of a tough ask, though another type of person who might be up for it is a woman who enjoys intense relationships but has a set end date on any relationship you have with her because she's moving or going back to school or whatnot in a few months.

      If you look above, it seems like a very common experience of women in casual relationships is men who aren't willing to invest much in terms of commitment or exclusivity, but who have high expectations about what the casual relationship has to offer, so I think you might run into a lot of women who are averse to this idea.

      • Guest

        Indeed. But I still think it is doable. The problem with a lot of the relationships listed above was that the woman seemed to be doing a lot more of the work than the man, the man got everything he needed out of the relationship but the woman didn't get what she wanted. But I think as long as he makes sure to be a giving partner and to constantly check in, it is doable. That being said, if this is something he wants a lot of then I see inevitable miscommunication and broken hearts with some people (like I said, it might even be his heart that gets trampled), because everyone is different and sometimes people think they want one thing but then change your mind. A woman may agree to his terms but then decide she's not that into him, or that she is so into him she wants a commitment. Ditto with him. Emotions morph, evolve, change. And that's a good thing. We just need to be aware of that and make sure we change our behaviours along with them.

      • AstralDazzle

        I'm a person who wants deep connection with anyone in my life (I'm not really the type to have "buddies"). I'm a busy person (or a person who prioritizes work over relationships for "reasons") have moved around a lot for school and work, and so has been serially monogamous. So I'd probably fit this. But I have another twist to add. My longest relationships have been with guys who never initiated "the relationship" talk, but did indicate things like not really wanting marriage, a house, or kids. Which weren't problems, because I wasn't seeking out those things. There was default exclusivity and vague talk of moving in together someday but no serious conversations. But the future looked like a continued series of not much more than once or twice a week hangouts with me cooking (which I do anyway, so that in itself doesn't bother me as much as it does some others but does get pretty one-sided after a while and I end up cooking more often because they eat more than I do) or takeout and a movie, which was for me, part of what led to my feeling pretty "meh."

        Imagine my surprise when I broke up with them and they were completely shocked and inconsolably devastated. Because we didn't have any "problems." Because I tried to bring up my needs in a polite tone of conversation instead of fighting, screaming, and crying, they didn't take them seriously?? So, yeah, *they* were apparently getting all of their needs met, but weren't aware (or didn't want to be conscious of the fact) that mine weren't. They *did* want emotional and sexual exclusivity and commitment as long as I was doing the work and they didn't have to do or risk much. Was I only such a catch because I was kind of pretty, faithful, and wasn't pressuring them for a ring and kids?. Because that's where logic took me and is it was disconcerting.

        I know we still have generations raised with the model of hetero relationships where a woman does all of the emotional work, regardless of the form the relationship takes. There's still going to be a learning curve for a while. But we all have to get in touch with what we want, own it, communicate it. Any arrangement that works for all partners needs the work of all partners.

    • Gentleman Horndog

      Add me to the "Tricky, but doable" chorus. Truth is, this describes several secondary relationships I've been a part of — intense, but non-exclusive and with an explicit understanding that we'll probably only see each other one or two times per week. The tricky bit comes from boundary maintenance — from discovering that you're paying lip service to the notion that you're in a secondary relationship, but treating it as though it were a primary with all the commitment and obligation that entails. Or that you're treating it as a casual non-committed FWB deal, when you and your partner said you were looking to explore a deeper emotional connection. Feelings can really get chewed-up both ways.

      If this is still how you feel when you're ready to start looking for a relationship, I'd definitely advocate explicitly looking for a poly one. (And not just "Open to exploring a poly relationship;" I know a few poly women who regard that as code for "I'll fuck you as long as it's convenient and will bail the moment I get a proper monogamous relationship going," and they're generally not eager to get back on that ride.) Just be honest about what you're looking for, and emphasize that no, you're not just trying to score some ass — you really feel like this could be the right choice for you.

      • Gentleman Horndog

        Important caveat: Feelings can change, relationships can evolve. I'm marrying somebody I thought I was just having a fun secondary fling with. As usual, the answer is communication: if you find your feelings aren't what they used to be or what you thought they were, be honest with where you're at, and don't just assume she's on the same page.

      • LTP_aka_TheWisp

        I know this is tangential, but since we're on the topic and you're the token poly-guy of the DNL comments :P, I had a few questions about polyamory, if you wouldn't mind answering them (I've read a lot about poly the past year or so):

        1. Do you have to be involved in formal poly groups to have a reasonable shot at finding partners? A lot of the poly advice I see basically says you have to develop a poly social network, and almost make the poly community itself a hobby, if you want to actually practice polyamory. If true, I find the idea a bit off-putting for some reason…

        2. If so, one thing I've noticed is that poly groups seem to skew towards people in their late 20s and up, most of whom *already have primaries*. Sometimes there doesn't seem room for a guy in his early 20s who wants secondaries, yes, but is also wanting a primary, and who is still exploring himself (even if I don't start dating for years, and I may well not, I'll still fit that description). Poly media and advice seems very focused on either couples, or single women. Not much for single guys :

        3. It seems really really hard for straight men to find partners even relative to other poly people, and the scarcity that implies scares me a bit because I'm pretty picky about personality. Is that true?

        • Gentleman Horndog

          1) Nope. Doesn't hurt if you're that kind of person, but if you're not, don't sweat it. Networking is optional. I meet most of my partners through OKC.

          2) That's a valid concern. Honestly, I feel like my entry was somewhat atypical — I was involved in several secondary relationships before forging a primary relationship with somebody who was doing pretty much the same thing as I was, but gender-flipped. It does seem like a lot of folks get into it in the context of opening a pre-existing monogamous relationship. Unfortunately, as a single guy, you'll wind up having to fight the perception that you could give a shit about the "many loves" thing and are just looking for some pussy. Just be cool, seek out poly women, and represent yourself accurately. Hopefully, you'll find somebody willing to take a chance on you being who you say you are, and things will proceed from there.

          3) It's a bit harder, but it's easy to overstate. Yeah, women (particularly bi women) are going to get more opportunities than the average straight guy. (Now, whether those opportunities are worth pursuing, different story entirely. If she's looking for an emotionally attached relationship, offers to be a one-night fucktoy aren't going to be that appealing, even if the people making the offer are kinda hot.) But I don't feel like it's any worse for us than it is in any other dating pool.

          Really, the core skillset is the same: bring something to the table that's enticing enough for her to want to get to know you better. And being a bit picky can actually work to your favor. It'll keep you from wasting time on women who aren't offering what you want, and can help you avoid that "I'll fuck ANYTHING" vibe that's off-putting as hell. The biggest difference is that if she mentions she'd like to introduce you to her boyfriend, that's actually a GOOD sign. 🙂

          • LTP_aka_TheWisp

            Cool, thanks for the reply!

          • Gentleman Horndog

            No problem.

            You didn't ask about it, but in my opinion, the biggest gotcha in poly is the whole jealousy thing — how you're going to react to the reality that your partner either has or is seeking out relationships with people who aren't you. Unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do to accurately anticipate how you're going to respond to that situation until you're actually in that situation, responding to it.

            This is where a good sense of personal boundaries really becomes crucial. You need to be able to ask for your partner's support and yet still own your reaction — to know the difference between asking them to hold your hand while you sort things out in your own head and asking them to fix it for you.

            Because it's not the ABSENCE of jealousy that tells you whether or not you can do this; that's ideal, and it may be where you eventually wind up, but there's just too much cultural conditioning telling you that your partner having sex with other people is the Worst Betrayal Imaginable for that to be a realistic goal right out of the gate. The key is being able to process those feelings and truly move past them. If you can't, that doesn't mean you're deficient, just means this isn't a good choice for you.

          • LTP_aka_TheWisp

            "Unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do to accurately anticipate how you're going to respond to that situation until you're actually in that situation, responding to it."

            Ugh, yeah, I've heard this before, and the uncertainty of it all is kinda scary to think about. Well, hopefully I'll be *less* jealous than I anticipate, but who knows? I haven't even been in a monogamous relationship so I have no idea what my patterns of jealousy (or lack there of) are.

            "This is where a good sense of personal boundaries really becomes crucial. You need to be able to ask for your partner's support and yet still own your reaction — to know the difference between asking them to hold your hand while you sort things out in your own head and asking them to fix it for you."

            I see what you mean, but it seems like such a fine line to walk, with either side being a bad situation, no? I imagine it gets easier over time though.

            But yeah, my poly-leanings have just reinforced my feelings that I really need to get to a place of mental health before I date.

          • Gentleman Horndog

            "I haven't even been in a monogamous relationship so I have no idea what my patterns of jealousy (or lack there of) are."

            I truthfully have no idea whether or not your lack of experience can be leveraged into an advantage here. But I wish you luck, and definitely like where your head is at. 🙂

            "I see what you mean, but it seems like such a fine line to walk, with either side being a bad situation, no? I imagine it gets easier over time though."

            As with most things, yeah. Practice definitely helps.

            "But yeah, my poly-leanings have just reinforced my feelings that I really need to get to a place of mental health before I date."

            A sound approach, regardless of whether poly is in the picture.

  • adamhunter1223

    One thing I think it's important to note is that some people just aren't built for casual relationships. I don't mean to give anyone any offense, but there are some people who have a really hard time keeping things casual. I'm a good example. I know myself well enough to know that there's no way I'd be able to have a romantic/sexual relationship with someone and keep it at a strictly casual level. It's just how I'm built.

    Again, no offense meant to anyone who isn't built for commitment, I don't care, not my life, not my body parts, but I do think it's important to know what kind of person you are before you enter into any relationship, casual or not. A little introspection never hurt anyone and it saves a lot of tears in the long run.

    • Guest

      I don't think you are causing offence in any way. You have a preference and others have theirs and that's all there is to it 🙂 . I absolutely think you're right that introspection of a person really wants is incredibly important. And I think we can feel all kinds of pressure depending on our social group. So one person might feel pressure to stay celibate until marriage because that's the community he is in but he really doesn't want to, where someone else might feel pressure to sleep with as many girls as possible and not care about them even though he wants to wait for marriage because that's the community he's in.

      The key is to know your own heart and mind, and to let no one else pressure you to do anything you don't want to do. And to be honest with your partner(s). But of course some people aren't "built" for casual relationships. That's perfectly normal. We're all perfectly normal in all our wonderful unique absurd ways 😉 .

  • chelseaxavier

    Really well put, Doc, but I'd add that wanting a committed relationship out of something that started as casual isn't necessarily malicious or 'pushing'. I've found that just because my partner and I agree that we want a casual relationship, doesn't mean that our feelings will hold up their end of the deal. I've felt guilty for developing real feelings for someone who was supposed to just be a friend-with-benefits, and felt betrayed when someone I agreed to be casual with wanted more, but the fact is that we can't always decide how we feel about someone. That can change whether you want it to or not, and in these situations, it usually sucks, but it's not anyone's fault.

    • Sciencegrrl Jones

      I find someone so frequently develops feelings no matter how clear the talk was at the beginning and throughout. I don't attempt the casual thing anymore. If it happens, great, but it so often (for many reasons the Doc ennumerated so well) ends in tears for all involved despite the bet of intentions.

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  • Tee

    “I’m gonna fuck two of everything!”

    I think that the fact that that comment is under a picture of a child is nasty and not appropriate..

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  • Michael Knight

    As a start i think casual is a better choice. I think it's the best way if 2 people don't know each other very well.
    "You might wonder why it is important to have a healthy relationship with someone you barely know."
    "all relationships start with a casual relationship"
    Don't see another way it to work if 2 people don't know each other at all and have no common background or activities together. otherwise it's just so much pain. in my opinion it can progress to something better afterwards. but i think i shouldn't expect nothing and flow where it takes me.

  • Chris CynicVash Zales

    wow i am in the same situation, but we both broke up kinda of the same time. so with this advice i would think this would apply. plus with her work schedule and going back to school, she would be a lot busy for a relationship but a friendship should build that for the future, if she wants and i play my cards right. "the best things come to people who wait"

    • Chris CynicVash Zales

      sorry, we both broke up with each other BF/GF.

  • reinigung putzfrau

    Hmm, the emotional leeway and doing cute stuff together is something I do. Then again, I mostly go for down-to-earth gals, who don't read too much into anything, so I should be alright.

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